Speaker 1 00:00:04 Hey, and welcome to freewill. And with carton podcast, I'm your host carton, white golf wheelchair warrior and disability advocate based in ATL Georgia. On this podcast, we believe in creating an accessible world, strengthened by supportive allies to build inclusion and belonging. We share stories from people with various disabilities and help to break down barriers for the disability community and working diligently to expand the network of disability allies. But I need your help in spreading the word, your rating and review on Apple podcasts pushes this content out to others who are either facing similar experiences, or just want to know more about disability culture, because they didn't learn it in their formative years. So please rate and review, subscribe and follow this podcast and share it with a friend. Download I access live. It's a mobile app that rates and reviews places on the built environment to break down barriers and transparency on the bathrooms, the interior parking, and any time that you go into a new place, you can find I access life, the mobile app on Google play and the Apple app store use referral code card in my name when signing up and the hosting a disability etiquette training on Monday.
Speaker 1 00:01:24 And you can find that on event, right? I'm also partnering up with access life to do that. So if you search, I asked this light on event, right? You can sign up for my disability, etiquette and inclusivity training for the service industry. So look forward to seeing you join. Today's guest is Krieger Gilbert. He was born and raised in Cape town, South Africa. He was an all around sports manned excelling in the app, athletics, rugby squash, and surfing in 1987. Krieger lost both his legs during a military skirmish and Angola. However, he is a rock star and is a six time Paralympian, a four time world champion, a two time Paralympic medalist and a number of awards and recognitions go on for a very long time. So he's really awesome and really competitive, great athlete. He's also the founder of able sport, which creates racing chairs and equipment for other athletes. And currently he's in Georgia with his wife and kids look forward to talking all about Paralympics and his experience with it and where it can go to be better and more inclusive. All right. Enjoy. All right. Well, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining. How's it going? How are you doing I'm? Well, I'm well and thankful to have you on here, and we can talk all about Paralympic sports and overcoming barriers and challenges having disabilities, both you and I know that very well. So I'll give you a floor and you,
Speaker 2 00:03:01 Hey, well, thanks for having me on, on your podcast on your show. And I've told my story many, many times over and over. I think by this time I know the ins and outs of it, the long version and a short version. So I'll try not to keep it too long and too boring, but, uh, some good stories in between. So I don't know if you can know this, I've got an accent, a little bit of a different accent. I'm not your typical Southern boy. I am I'm Southern, but Southern Africa, I'm from South Africa originally born and raised in Cape town. Okay. So kept on is kind of the lowest, further South city in, in Africa, big city in Africa. And, uh, I grew up with Atlantic ocean and the Indian ocean meats and, uh, all the mountains and everything arrived there. So in Africa, in South Africa, our school system was elementary and high school.
Speaker 2 00:04:00 You have elementary, middle and high. So I went in my town, you know, one school to another school. And that was it. Now no big jumps, no moves around from one city to the other. My parents was just kind of happy where they were and I was very happy. I could be at the beach most of the time, me and my two older brothers. So I used to grow up, grow up surfing, surfing was my passion surfing was my passion. So I finished my school years and all the boys in that time had to join the military. So I have to jump on the train and go do basics and do my military service. Did that finish that what an experience it was. And then I came back home and I started, I went to college, so I sell the engineering and the Cape town college.
Speaker 2 00:04:53 Then, uh, during my time as a student, the country was still very much in war. And so you had to do still have to call you, you have to go. And I got papers in the mail, no emails that those years that was in the eighties. So I got papers in the mail. You have to be ready, climb and, uh, and do a three month scan. And that was during that timeframe in 1987, when I was in the military skirmish and, uh, the enemy jets flew over us and the dropped the bombs. And one of the bombs unfortunately fell real close to me, close enough, actually, to, you know, uh, so I lost my legs there right there. Luckily not on my head, so I'm still alive, but you know, I, you know, according to doctors, I should have been dead, but I'm still alive.
Speaker 2 00:05:50 And I guess I'm yet to tell my story to you, to you guys. And then during my time, I know it's no, no, the more the compact stories a lot happened in between. So during my time in rehab, my OT, occupational therapist, she was very adventurous because she could also see this guy. He wanted to do things, you know, I just wanted to, I was so happy to be alive, you know, so I was ready to do anything what's out there and, you know, tackle any challenge. So we went to all the sporting kind of Angela padded bowl and, uh, swimming and a track event. And when we went to the track event, that's when I saw the first racing chairs, the guys going around the track doing a 15 mile or whatever that day. But I just, I told her, I remember I told her daddy, that's what I wanted to do, but I kept playing basketball and I swam and I went to track event.
Speaker 2 00:06:44 I mean, not track events. I went to low running events, like five Ks and fun runs. So I always just did it in my everyday wheelchair, my hospital chair, basically. So I kept going with it, had fun with it, but always, you know, waiting for that opportunity to get a rising chair. And then it must just some or, uh, someone in my community was an engineering company. They said, well, we see you all the, all the time trying to raise runners and your everyday wheelchair, maybe we can build you something. And so that bought me a racing chair from bottom up. And, uh, no experience didn't really know what we wanted to do. Didn't really have an end goal as well, as long as we had four wheels and they can go faster than a everyday wheelchair. So the final part of the racing chair was being made at, uh, actually at another company then fabrication and engineering company.
Speaker 2 00:07:41 And, uh, I was on the way to a matter on my first marathon ever. And we still had to pick up the steering of the rising chair. So I haven't even been in the rising junior year. We're going to a marathon and we don't have the steering. So we stopped at the, at the, at the shop pick up the steering drove, I think it was like a thousand kilometers, say 700 miles or whatever, all the way inland to do this marathon. I put everything together. And I used the, uh, my, the seat cushion that I used for the racing chair was one of the, the, the chairs in hotel rooms, cushion. And I, it was the funniest thing. I used that cushion for a long time actually. And, uh, so I jumped in a chair and the, and the guys laughed at me and I said, you never got to finish that marathon.
Speaker 2 00:08:31 And I'd probably also thought, you know, I'm not going to finish this marathon because now I went zigzag over the road, but somehow I finished it and it was, uh, it was one of those days that, you know, I promised myself, I just want to finish this race, get it done with never, ever do anything like this anymore, you know, and you know, you get done and you lick your wounds and you feel sorry for yourself, but you go back again and now I've done hundreds of marathons and I'm still, I'm still stupid enough to do more. So basically that's how my, my, I landed in a chair and how I started from being a Walker and a rhino to a Wheeler and a racer in a wheelchair.
Speaker 1 00:09:14 Nice. And thank you so much for sharing your story. It sounds like very similar as you know, there's bumps in the road and you figure out a way to get around that you laugh at yourself, but sometimes you're just like, why should I really be doing what I'm doing? And then you realize that it sounds like it became a passion and a career of yours and turned it into a company. So that's really cool. What are some, or I guess a question that you, that you kind of answered is, you know, that's how I landed in a chair and I feel I get this a lot because I'm also a wheelchair user. A lot of people will ask me, you know, why are you using a wheelchair? And I haven't met them before. How do you usually respond to people?
Speaker 2 00:09:59 Well, is this, uh, uh, it depends, of course, who asks, right? If it's the, the kid in the elevator, uh, say a five or six year old kid in the elevator and the, and he would point at me, mom, he doesn't have legs, right? Like that. And, uh, the moment we don't say anything, be nice, you know, exactly what, uh, you know, what, you know,
Speaker 2 00:10:29 They are very curious and they still felt that. Yes. And when it's, when that happens, I'm usually very, very wide open because I don't want to put the parent or the kid in a bad spot. Ah, no. You know, I just don't exactly. I don't have any, any decks because I wasn't asked, I don't tell details anything. I wasn't an accident. And, uh, so, but you know, now I use wills for legs and, uh, look, you know, I'm already like my racing wheelchair, but you know, a lot of times they want to see your leg or where, where is your leg stone? So it's, uh, it's, it's just a situation. Have to handle it as informative, but not overwhelming to someone. But when it's someone, you know, when I'm at an event or, you know, and there's adults and someone asked me, you know, I'll, I'll give them a little more detail because then it's a little bit more of a formal conversation. So yeah, it's, it's always interesting how people react when you tell them what happened to, you know, when I said what's a bomb explosion, really, you know, but I've got love stories as well. And you're like aligned story and people love the line story because I'm from Africa as well. That's a great story.
Speaker 1 00:11:39 But you tell him that your legs got eaten by a lion. Oh, and they, do they believe you?
Speaker 2 00:11:47 Well, yeah. In America actually a lot of people. Yes, yes. Yes. Because I think it's Africa, you know, because I'm from Africa and I think, you know, Africa is, will all, then the animals are all over. The story is always that the lion, um, I, uh, a little hot in, uh, in my, you know, my backyard was, my house was hot and I two lines as pets and, uh, all the lines came with two, two hour a night, camping underlines of me and my friend worked together. And, uh, the lines came with us. And, um, as I, you know, canter on the fire that night, I work up and then my two lines, eight, my friend, and they were halfway busy with me, boy. And I lost my temper. And I gave the whole line of back-end like this and I lost my left index finger. And as I hit the lion face, he grabbed my left index finger and he ran away and I never saw the, saw the lines again. And that's the story that people, some people really believe that, you know, and that wall, and then some people would laugh. You know, some people would laugh, but that's the life story. And it's, it's a better story than the bomb story, but, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:13:06 I like the lion story. It sounds, it sounds legit. Like I probably would be gullible enough to believe that
Speaker 2 00:13:16 In all honesty in 19, in 1992, I still lived in South Africa and we were at the Olympic trials in new Orleans. So it was me and my Dutch friends from Holland and Belgium. We were in a train, I mean, in the bus. And there were some students, you know, students in the bus was two or three goals and they asked us, where are we? Because I heard us talk where all from. And they said that from Belgium and Holland, and I said, I'm from South Africa. And when I asked, I said, Africa, one of the girls said, wow, from Africa, you really live in little huts in Africa. And then that's how it started. I immediately just spend a story about, yes, I have a wonderful little hat in Africa and the line. So that's how it started. And I believe that, I mean, I swallowed, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:14:10 That is so great. Oh my goodness. People that is so funny. Well, I mean, the way that Africa is pictured and painted and portrayed over in America is it's just a bunch of wild animals and people are running Savage, like ravages, savages around everywhere. And that there's a lot of war and there's a lot of famine and kids that are starving and like that's all of Africa is that's what, how we've kind of brought up. And that's far from the truth. And there's a lot of very well-developed cities. Um,
Speaker 2 00:14:47 If you take the, you know, those days, Oh, excuse me. Oh, okay. No, those days there wasn't an intimate. No, not holidays. Google can tell you anything, but in a light early, early nineties, there was no, there was no Google. So whatever you year from me, is that the truth or magazine or you have to go there yourself.
Speaker 1 00:15:09 Yeah. Can you kind of describe to me a little bit about what accessibility was like decades ago? I'm I'm I just turned 28. So I was born into being protected by the Americans with disabilities act and the built environment. I would say a good portion of it has ramps and elevators, and it's still is problematic, but I would say I'm much better off than some other people, like in previous decades, you know, how, how were those challenges growing up?
Speaker 2 00:15:44 Well, you know, if, if you compare the us to Europe or Africa even more, um, and it was always, you felt like a King coming to the us because Tech's accessibility was always so much better here than anywhere else, or even Asia was also tricky. You know, everything is small, the cars are small, the buildings are small in Europe. It's, um, the, the history of, of, you know, if you bought the home it's different and you make it accessible, but if you go downtown in Germany or whatever city in there, beautiful old buildings, all the restrooms are downstairs. You know, you have to find another way or another place. And I don't, you know, cater for wheelchairs, like, yeah. And that was the same in, in South Africa, it was just more third world and changed the like Mitchell a whole lot better now. But those days, you know, often you had to go, you know, maybe you find a Ram, but then you make up this ramp and then a little bit further down the line, there's three steps.
Speaker 2 00:16:54 So it wasn't always with the best planning and, uh, or you go to a place where the, where the restroom that the door is accessible, bathroom, the doors are so tight, you cannot close the door almost behind you. And the mirror is about three feet above your head. So, you know, you kind of, you know, getting yourself well. So it was, it was definitely, uh, you know, to me being in a wheelchair late eighties, early nineties is when I had my accident. I thought, you know, it just had to be like that. And then when I started traveling year early nineties, that's when I realized, no, it didn't have to be like that. Things could be different. And then you realize how much more, uh, you know, a society is to do, to make, you know, make it more convenient for folks in wheelchairs.
Speaker 1 00:17:49 Do you think that the perception of people with disabilities has changed for non-disabled people? So how they view you, how they look at you, do you feel like it's gotten better worse or the same?
Speaker 2 00:18:03 No, definitely better. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, uh, much to do with visibility. People should come out and be out, you know, in some countries, if you're in a wheelchair, it's, it's so inaccessible that you're not are people don't see you. So the more accessible it is, the more art you are, the more people will get to someone in a wheelchair. So in that respect, you know, since the early, late eighties, early nineties, it changed dramatically how people see you. And, um, like yesterday I was at, uh, in stone mountain, we, uh, at my Paralympic, t-shirt on for the USA team and the guy, you didn't see me as a guy in a wheelchair. He said to me, what did you do in Olympic? So the whole thing of the wheelchair, it was just to be for him to see this guy went to the Olympic games. Um, those days it will be, you know, different Dido's I see the people in that, not what's behind it.
Speaker 1 00:19:09 Hm that's uh, that's so beautiful to see that people are, and obviously there, there was a context clue there, right? You're wearing a Paralympic, either uniform or shirt or something. And that people associate the games as being this really amazing event. And I watched the documentary, uh, what was it like rising Phoenix or something about the creation of the Paralympics and the history behind it and the obstacles that they faced and just the representation. And, um, that kind of gets me into the next question is, cause you were in the Paralympics and what was that like and how, how are you still treated as a Paralympic compared to an Olympic athlete?
Speaker 2 00:19:57 You know, going, I've been to six times, my first one was in Barcelona and then it was 97, 92 and then boss, uh, Atlanta in 96, then set me in 2000. That's when we moved here from South Africa, between the Atlanta games and the Sydney games. And then I went into Greece and then I must Beijing because of, uh, you know, too long of South Africa and not a citizen year yet, but then I got my citizenship. So I made it for two more games, London and Rio. So the first games was just amazing. It was, it was fantastic because, you know, then you're not used to anything like this. And then all of a sudden you're, you're are almost 10,000 athletes together in a village from each and every country you can think in perfect harmony and peace and, and, uh, eat together and your rice together.
Speaker 2 00:20:55 And, um, yeah, it was just, you know, my experience that I will always feel like it's one of those top feelings I've ever, ever experienced. Basically also the difference between a small country and a big country. Uh, so the Africa, we were 11 total in the team, including the, my first games now that was including the staff. So the team manager and all the athletes 11, and we, you know, those years we got, we got a, an outfit or track to the UK and we got little facts and we had to start the flags on ourselves. So, you know, it's, it's now you, you qualify for the games. Now you treated as an Olympian those years, you were still treated as a parent, but now it's so different. I mean, you get exactly the same as the Olympic athletes, the same kid. And, um, it's a world of difference to all of the offense.
Speaker 2 00:21:55 And of course, you know, going from a small team to the USA team where we were, I think, I think we were maybe 300 or so only for track and field and the team on team USA, where we were 11 for the whole team, you know, in South Africa. So big team, small team, we feel like a little bit more of a number, which is not as cool as a small team because in a small team, you stand out does know where you are, but you know, to be part of the us team was, you know, that was, uh, quite something I never thought I would be part of team USA and yeah, but definitely, um, your question was, how do you, how do people see the difference between Paralympics and Olympics? It's coming, it's coming closer, real close actually now. And, uh, that's good to see real good to see. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:22:47 Because in the movie, I think it was in Rio where they, at the last minute, the budgeting or whatever that was supposed to go to the Paralympic games, they moved it over to the Olympic games and there was like a huge uprising about it. And then I heard a lot of stories about just access, uh, access issues in Rio for those Olympic and Paralympic games. Did you find that to be the case? It was like, you're I just read news stories of, you know, your hotels weren't accessible or to get into the stadium, whatever wasn't a comfortable, something like that.
Speaker 2 00:23:22 Yeah. Ball, no, I, no, no, that was, I know, I know there was issues with, uh, with the funding. Yes. I know that called out right before the games and then that too, I can't remember the details there, but that wasn't great. Luckily, I didn't even know about that until after the games, so that cool. But I, as a, as a Paralympian, uh, our, you know, it wasn't five star, but the access there was, it was accessible. There wasn't, there wasn't any place I wanted to go that I couldn't go. And that bus, that was good. You know, every, every village has its obstacles and every country has its obstacles and, uh, Brazil was great. It wasn't as maybe, uh, you know, as fluent as I would say, um, uh, Sydney was quite amazing actually the Sydney games, but, you know, it was still, I like it was still amazing.
Speaker 1 00:24:22 Cool. Yeah. That's, that's good to hear that you had a great experience and it's good to see her here as well, that the gap is, is closing in, right? How this same level of representation and quality and value, and just how people see the Paralympics and the Olympics they're looked at equally. I know a lot of people say they talk about the word Paralympics and some people don't like it because they think it casts out disabled people where some people like the word Paralympic. And what I remember in the movie, it was saying like para Olympic, it has, it didn't even have to do with disability. It had to do with just, I don't remember the exact term, but what are, what are your thoughts on the term Paralympic?
Speaker 2 00:25:19 Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. I, you know, I don't feel like I see some people that's in the Paralympics. I do the Olympic circles on there, like a tattoo. Now I'm very proud of the Paralympic teardrop. So the water drops with the different colors and, um, and the Paralympics actually originate from parallel to the Olympics Olympics. So it's not anything to do with a paraplegic or whatever. I think the connotation unfortunately is there for, for being a paraplegic. But, you know, there are very few paraplegics better at the games. Actually. Not very few. There are a lot, but you know, there's a small, small percentage compared to people with a vision or amputees or any other kind of visibility. So that's why it's called parallel to Olympic games.
Speaker 1 00:26:17 Nice. Where do you have any other visions for where the Paralympic games should go or where you see them going in terms of closing the gap or more representation, anything of that nature?
Speaker 2 00:26:33 Well it's, yes. The, you know, from an athlete's standpoint, it's been tough for, for athletes to stay in a division. You know, that's the tricky part of the Paralympics because each and every athlete has to be classified into a division. Like things is, I'm a track athlete, but there are four categories on the track. And, uh, so I know if you have four key categories on the track and for each category, you have a distance that you can run, like the hundred meters, 200 meters, the 400 Aidan it's, excuse me, it's very hard to have all that in advance and in such a short amount of time, you know, because you have four times, a hundred meters and four times or 5,000 meters or whatever. So unfortunately at the Paralympic level, they are taking away a lot of events just because there are not enough time for those events.
Speaker 2 00:27:32 So it's almost like there's not enough distance events and there's not enough sprinting events for each category or each division. That is one thing. And the other, I would say is getting closer in, I would say if, if they are a little bit better, the, the television footage of the, of our games not live footage, that will be awesome because that is something that a lot of people miss. I know some countries do great in it. Unfortunately it's still all year in the U S the lag a little bit, uh, NBC, a lot of the events will be nighttime events, or it would be so nighttime year, not daytime life where even some of the smaller countries, they have, you know, maybe one or two stations, you know, dedicated to the games and more, uh, visibility for all events. And you can, you know, don't have to get up in the middle of the night to watch something, um,
Speaker 1 00:28:40 Yeah, watch a recording of it or something that's not an equal playing field. So no, thanks for kind of sharing a little bit of the insider of what your experience has been and what you envisioned for what we can do better and kind of tangenting. So you originally were talking about how you kind of Jerry rigged this chair with a cushion, from a hotel and created your first wheelchair racing. And now you've gone on to creating your company able sport to create racing chairs. And so do you want to talk a little bit about that and why you decided to create that company?
Speaker 2 00:29:20 Well, in my early years, I traveled to Europe and I trained there for six months just to rise before Barcelona, before the Barcelona games in 1992, actually in 1991. And then the 1992, I qualified went to the games, but when, while I was in Barcelona, I mean, in Europe for that six months, I got a sponsorship from a German company to raise the chairs and all of that. I started to sell their rising chairs in South Africa, just because there wasn't enough going on. You know, we, we had to make sure our own thing. So there was opportunity for me, both sides to be an athlete and also deal with the equipment. And during that time, our currency was not, you know, very stable and strong. So I started making fabricating and making racing chairs with my brother in South Africa until we moved here in 1997, my wife and I, and then year I got started with a sponsorship to begin with an, a us company.
Speaker 2 00:30:28 And then now I don't know how many years, maybe almost 18 years later when I finally decided, okay, I'm not going to rise so much anymore. I'm done racing. I'm going to focus more on equipment. Equipment is actually, my racing would be my passion, right? But as part of the racing equipment is also my, my, my passion. I love working on equipment and having nice equipment. And, uh, three, after the Rio games, in 2016, I started dealing with equipment, the company that used to sponsor me selling their equipment. And I did my coaching certification for triathlon. Yeah. See you as a certified coach, but that didn't stay. So I wasn't really so much into that. Although I love working with athletes, I started staying more towards the, the equipment side again. And then during the COVID time, last year, I realized, you know, this is not much business going on.
Speaker 2 00:31:28 And that's when I started to manufacture again, my own equipment. And I started with equipment that people would need doing during the COVID time. And my focus was to get something, keep you active. And so I started making training rollers. So you have your racing chair, you put on a training roller, and then you go, you can train on neurology, like a bicycle rider or a, um, uh, aesthetic, you know, treadmill or whatever. So from there I started doing more and more and now I'm, you know, it really keeps me busy. So I, there, the sales on equipment is coming back now again. And I really have my hands full because now people want to buy racing chairs and rollers and other things like, uh, travel box. I started making a travel box in 2019 for your racing chair, when you fly that also died during COVID no one, no one was traveling. Now, all of a sudden I've got, you know, a lot of, uh, a whole lot. I'm having fun with it. There's nothing better. But, um, I keep my boys, I have a 17 and a 19 year old. I keep them busy, like being, working for me all day today. No sprint sprint spring break. So I had a couple of days off, but today and tomorrow they're working for me. So I'm back in the equipment and the sport is, is growing.
Speaker 1 00:32:57 Awesome. That's great to hear it for your business. And you found a new interest in an area based out of necessity. And then also with the current times, right, you were able to change and come up with a new thing to keep people active. So that's a, that's a strong mindset. No doubt. You talked about a box for traveling and we probably both know very well that traveling, using a wheelchair it's oftentimes that the wheelchair gets damaged on the plane. And so is what, how, how does this box protect the, the racing chair?
Speaker 2 00:33:35 Yeah. Okay. That's um, yeah, that's a, that's quite a big of the reason why I actually start really thinking about the travel box in 2019. During that year, I sold a lot of chairs to the airlines and was raising chairs that got damaged. And I always felt so bad. You know, a racing chair that it's totally, you can prevent it if you just have the right equipment. So I designed a box that's out of a extremely high density foam. It's carved by a CNC machine. Exactly the size of the racing chair, which is a standard box. You know, most frames are about the same size. They get a little bit wider and a little bit narrow. So I, the box, um, it's actually the name of my travel box is called a rice case. So the rice case is designed. They tied to the size of a regular racing chair.
Speaker 2 00:34:36 And so they're to hide into the foam with the lid and inside this traps that holds the chair down. And it's also covered with, um, I don't know if you've ever heard of Linux. Linux is material. They spray on the back of a truck to protect the bed of a truck. So the foam is covered with lineup. So it's extremely hard and durable. You can still punch it, but at least, you know, when you travel, your tear will be sized box can try the box can, can damage, but you want to go to the event and arrive there and have a chair. Cause I've been myself, the event when I arrive to it, basic excited, you cannot wait to enter the rice. And then, you know, what do you do if your chair is bent or your wheels are damaged or whatever,
Speaker 1 00:35:25 Apparently there's nothing worse than that feeling of you're losing your freedom or your ability to go and just, you know, assimilate into whatever country or city that you're in. So I know all about
Speaker 2 00:35:38 That. I was looking at it as well. It kind of looks just like an ironing board. That's like the shape that it reminds me of. Well, cool. We talked about a lot of topics and always can just chat more via if you have any follow-up follow up or last minute thoughts. So anything else that you want to share and we can wrap up? Uh, well I think, no, I think we, we covered basically everything. One thing I can say is if no, being in a wheelchair, it's not really so much what I've been to, but it's more what you make off, what happened to you. And, uh, I think if, if you can have that mindset, it will help a lot. Now you can, you can do a lot. And, uh, I feel like, you know, keeping pushing, keep pushing forward and make the best of whatever circumstance is a good mindset for everyone. Those are good parting thoughts. Are there any books, podcasts, TV, things that you recommend to those that want to learn more about the disability community or what you're working on? Not off the top of my head, but uh, if I ever do come up with something, I'll let you know. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And uh, I find, uh, reliving my, my own stories and the best. Good, good questions yet. All right. Take care.
Speaker 3 00:37:08 Thank you, friends for listening. Please rate and follow this podcast. We're text card at (470) 588-1215 with comments and suggestions tune in next week for another disability topic.