Speaker 0 00:00:02 So we chose to imagine that to take the characters of DNS and Andromeda as two disabled bodies and tell their story, the story of two disabled dancers with no non-disabled reference on stage.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 Hey, and welcome to freewill on carton. I'm your podcast host card and why cough, wheelchair warrior disability advocate. And we talk about people with disabilities on this podcast and talk about adaptive equipment, their stories, different kinds of inventions, all kinds of things related to disabilities and how to be an ally and more inclusive for those with disabilities. You can find me on Instagram at and with pardon F R E w H E L I N with carton. And let me know what you think. Give it a rating and give it a thumbs up, share it with another person to help make the world a more accessible place. The next episodes are going to be a collective from kinetic light, which is a performing arts company that features disabled dancers. And up first I have Laurel Lawson who began her professional dance career with full radius stance in 2004, full Rady stands is based in Atlanta, ATL, Shadi what's up.
Speaker 1 00:01:28 That's where I'm from. Where in addition to choreographic collaboration and performance, Laurel contributes designs and leads technical innovation, including the ADI Mance project, which is a revolutionary app centering non visual audiences and the access all ways initiative beyond dance. Laurel is an advocate musician skates for the USA. Women's sled hockey team and leads, psych core systems, a technology consultancy specializing in novel problems. You can find Laurel on Instagram worlds of Laurel. If you haven't already downloaded the app, I access life by two good friends, Brandon and <inaudible> based here in Atlanta created it and it's to build transparency in the built environment. It's like the out for disabilities use referral code cartons, C a R D E N when signing up and you rate interview places on their bathrooms, their interior, their parking, and it just makes it a lot easier when you go out to get food, to go to the bar, to go to the grocery store and to understand what the built environment is like for that specific facility. All right, let's get started with the episode. Welcome Laurel to freewheeling with carton podcasts. Thank you so much for being here. How's it going?
Speaker 0 00:02:52 It's going pretty well as I guess, you know, it's a nice rainy night here in Atlanta.
Speaker 1 00:03:00 Well, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast because today we're going to talk about your experience being a dancer who uses a wheelchair, but that's only just one part of your identity is the wheelchair. And so I really want to just talk about what you are doing in the performing arts field to break down those barriers for people with disabilities. So give us an intro and tell me all about it.
Speaker 0 00:03:25 I have been working as a professional dancer since 2004. I am also a technologist, a product designer. So a lot of my practice is about bridging art and technology, as well as creating traditional or what you might call conventional choreography on stage. Of course, I work with a lot of disabled dancers. I initially trained right here in Atlanta with full radius dance, which is one of the better known companies in the world for the artistic quality athletic assists, and then partnering and led by the artistic director and founder Douglas Scott. I am also a member of the disabled artists, collective kinetic light, which is creating evening length work, things that tour, all of our artists are disabled, both onstage and offstage. So yeah, there's a lot going on right now.
Speaker 1 00:04:41 Do you have many facets that you work on in your choreographer was just really awesome just to think about all the things that all the skill sets that you have and how all of those different assets that you bring, create amazing performing arts. And so can you walk me through those different kind of like the lenses that you look through that has helped to create descent?
Speaker 0 00:05:07 Wow. Catching back a couple of years. It's hilarious because I just posted on Instagram today, a picture that was from our very, very first residency. If we had just gotten our ramp built and moved into a space for the very first time. So that was kind of a blast from the past. That must have been like early 2017. Maybe I would have to look it up. The scent is a love story. It's based on a sculpture by Rodin the 12 out of being a sin Andromeda and Alice Shepherd, the artistic director of kinetic light and my dance partner was caught by the Senate. You know, why, why these two they're from different mythologies? There is no story in which they meet. And Rodin, you might say was ahead of his time and how he thought about beauty. He talked about the beauty of the incomplete and the imperfect, whereas pretty much all of his contemporaries were into this idealized form.
Speaker 0 00:06:26 So another way that we can look at this is to say, okay, Rodin was talking about disability. So we chose to imagine this to take the characters of Venus and Andromeda as two disabled bodies and tell their story, the story of two disabled dancers with no non-disabled reference on stage. It's the story of two queer women with no straight reference. Of course, it's the story of two women with no male reference. So part of what we were doing there is choosing to tell the story on our terms without giving people what they thought of as normal to compare it to this that was really brought to life by at the time our third artists still a member. But since then, we've invited a fourth artist who's participating in wired. Michael mag is our lighting and projections designer based in Oregon. And he is an absolute wizard.
Speaker 0 00:07:42 And like, I remember that first residency I was talking about, I would often times drive us back and forth and Michael would be sitting in the passenger seat, just sketching from photography and records of her dance sculpture and some of the characters and ideas we were working with. He would be sketching the whole way there and back, and then bringing those to life and light. And those are the projections you see during the performance on our brand, on the backdrop projected onto our bodies. And of course, there's the rail designed by Sarah Hendron and her students at Olin college. It's kind of, it's the third partner in the dance. It's really a trio between Alice and I and the ramp thinking about that pleasure of flying down a really good well-designed ramps. We know what that is as wheelchair users, we relish. I mean, I think we all have our favorite rants.
Speaker 0 00:08:57 Like we all go there for fun. What would it be if we could build that into a dance work, if we could communicate that with the audience and the descent ramp is not simple, it's not, you know, you have a slope and it goes up three mathematical functions. There is a platform and there's an uphill slope. That's actually a conic section. There's a tubular part, there's a downstage broad slope. So it's a lot of different things to work with. And what was really exciting and what was clear from our first showings are, you know, just bringing people in to see little bits and snippets is that people were getting it. They would lean forward. They would breeze with us. And that kind of physical empathy is something that is pretty well studied in dance. When you go to a dance performance, even if you're not aware of it, as you're watching the dancers, your own body will respond and for train dancers, watching a performance, it's very obvious. Like you'll actually see people in voluntarily because we're experiencing physical empathy with the performers. Well, that is not something that anyone had ever managed to make happen between performers with fundamentally different embodiment because a non-disabled person cannot imagine the movement pleasure of being in a wheeled embodiment. We were starting to be able to elicit that response, which is just really exciting on so many levels. I mean, I could go on, but let me stop there.
Speaker 1 00:10:53 I'm just taking notes. There's so many things here. I, what I, what I continued to hear was the power of three. So three pieces. So the light, the ramp, and then the artists, then you have the three and the ramp. So there's three embodiments of this. Is that, is there any coincidence there or is that just, I mean, three is a very powerful number, cause it's odd. It's an odd number and it has that middle feeling in it. And I'm wondering if there's anything there about that physical empathy of having it all be. So even
Speaker 0 00:11:25 I'm afraid that sometime before Alison I realize partner December when we were
Speaker 2 00:11:54 Going in and out of the work and the choreography and I was routinely commuting from wherever we were rehearsing that, you know, California or New York. And then I was commuting back to Atlanta kind of week on week off and working in the studio here. I was actually really worried about the difference between working on the slopes and working on flat ground because when your whole world is tilted underneath, you rake, as we would say in dance or theater, you know, your technique is different. You're very conception of up and down changes.
Speaker 1 00:12:35 Interesting. And you're describing what it was like to be flying down a really great ramp and that visualization to my mind, I just, it does, it doesn't really exist in the built environment. And I love how you guys have created that in your performance, because when we think about the framework of what an ADA ramp to this day looks like in the United States, it is really only wide enough for one wheelchair and maybe one other person to be next to you. But not really because it's almost like you're going to get in the way. And I want to hear more about the design of this ramp and how we can put that into the built environment and looking through the lens of this universal design and always having access instead of this isolating experience where, okay, I'm going to take the ramp. And then my sister who who's not disabled, she can take the stairs. And so it creates that disjointed experience and we've created that in our built environment. So I'll let you speak to that.
Speaker 2 00:13:46 Yeah, there's so much there. Ramps are frequently beautiful architectural features. I mean, we have a fantastic example of that in Atlanta at the high museum or in New York at the Guggenheim ramps can be dramatic. They can be showy, they can be welcoming and cozy. I mean, they're a feature that deserves to be treated as in architecture. And it's really only a fairly recent development in the scheme of saying this idea that, Oh, ramps are only for disabled people. We need to make them ugly and functional. Oh, it's okay. If we talk it around the back and you go in by the dumpsters, you don't mind. Do you
Speaker 1 00:14:42 Tell you how many times I have gone through back of dumpsters through kitchens serve as elevators in the back down another ramp through a dungeon to get to where I need to go. So
Speaker 2 00:15:01 We could probably get on that and just talk about like the spectrum of ramps. I mean, I could do a whole episode back in trees to locations in other countries. One time I got kitchen tour at a two Michelin star restaurant that was actually kind of cool, but it wasn't cool that it wasn't by choice. And it wasn't by invitation, right? Architectural feature, right. Brands deserve respect as the beautiful and graceful things that they can be. And that was something, you know, Alice was really getting into the architecture history of it and working with Sarah Hendron who his whole thing is about how our bodies meet the built environment. You know, Sarah has also created what we call the ramp kit, her slope-intercept project, which is a set of easily buildable ramp units. They're made from plywood. There are small, medium and large units. They can be stacked, they can be rearranged. They're like ramp Legos. So occasionally when Alice and I are only doing shorter shows, we tour works that are made for those. And for every piece across the 20 to 30 minutes, well, these days it's more like 40 to 50 minutes. We rearranged the ramp so that you're literally seeing a different set. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:54 One single performance is never the same. I love that. And that's what makes it so unique that you go, and it's not something that is just automatically replicated again, it's, it's changed up a little bit and that's the power of live performances.
Speaker 2 00:17:09 Well, yeah, I mean, that is, that is part of live dance as much. I mean, we were her endlessly for things to be precise and replicable and the same every time. And sometimes things happen several times when I've gone off the edge of stages, the closest I've ever been to death while dancing was on a rape stage in Italy, where I was in a dead sprint chasing my partner and my partner and I were the same weight, but she flung herself to the ground to catch my hand for what we call a counterbalance, which means, you know, she becomes the center point of a circle and I'm now slingshotting her. Well, the slope of the stage was steep enough that I was dragging her down Hill and I was four wheels over the orchestra pit. Very briefly, absolutely terrifying. Fortunately, this was in tech rehearsal and not in performance because I just laid down on the stage and had a little moment, nonetheless. Yeah. So the descent rant, the Homeland ramp, we had no clue what we were going to get. This was part of a project for Sarah and her colleague <inaudible> students up at Olin college. So Alice went up there and did some prep for, you know, talking about ramps, talking about the kinds of things that are enjoyable or not enjoyable on wheels. Yes. Ramp, no Brit.
Speaker 2 00:18:51 And then they went back and forth with us on conference calls on a bunch of designs. And we were going to go back up there for another week and spend some time playing with one of their designs. And I don't remember precisely the design that we had approved that we signed off on. It was not marvelously exciting, but you know, you could make a, it could make a set piece. You know, we were going to give it an honest go. And then we got there and this, the Homeland ramp awaited us with it's Connick and with the different planes. And you know, that point, he peaked way up there, six feet off the ground, which doesn't sound like a lot until, you know, you're using it for a ski slope without the snow.
Speaker 2 00:19:45 So we spent a week just beginning to learn its language and understand some of the movement that would be possible. And then we went away, we did a little tweaking, had it re-engineered and had it built by a stage shop and we were off tour. But yeah, I mean, this was something that students did, this freshmen students did this because they didn't know they couldn't, they didn't everybody else. We talked to a lot of people about this. Everyone else wanted to put railings on it. There were like, well, so 12 to one is the compliance slope. We are not asking for compliance. We are asking for a work of art and it's true. The descent ramp is not safe. As a matter of fact, our insurance, our insurance says we can't let people on it who were not actively engaged in the work. And every single person who's been on it has fallen, you know, legs, wheels. It doesn't matter. They're our tech team when they have to clean it, they do it on their hands and knees so that they don't fall over. If that gives you any idea, you know, I can't tell you the number of times, Alison, I have fallen the first time our lighting designer, Michael went on, he came up and Oh, he went right for the steepest possible slope. He was going up to that pointy peak and well, Michael's not a small man.
Speaker 2 00:21:36 It was a mighty fall. I mean, I was about to say it's all in a day's work, which for a dancer, it absolutely is for a lighting designer, less. So, you know, for a dancer, learning to fall is one of the first things you do in the studio because it is going to happen. Right?
Speaker 1 00:22:00 So this common theme that you keep mentioning is movement. And that feeling of moving in a wheelchair and getting the audience to be able to kind of just get off the edge of their seat and be on the edge of their seat and, and feel the movement and feel the vibration and the sounds. And so there's a lot of sensations and you're using a lot of senses to be able to take in what is being visually seen to you. But I know you guys are very big on, well, what happens if you can't see what, if you're not cited? What if you're blind or have low vision. So talk to me about what you stand for and why accessibility is so Corrine in your performances.
Speaker 2 00:22:44 Well, it would be kind of hypocritical of us if you know, we, weren't making sure that what we do is accessible and accessible to everybody. Not just people who look and move like us, otherwise, you know, that would not make us any better. It really all comes down to equity. It comes down to having an equitable experience. And during one of our work in progress showings, we were in a theater in the Bay area and we had invited basically the entire disability community of the Bay that we could fit into this theater. I mean, we had people crammed in every possible space you could fit. I mean, we had some real triumphs there. Things like there are inside jokes and the choreography you have to send in a lot of ways is our love letter to people who live in chairs, because there are things that no one who doesn't use a chair will ever spot, but our blind friends had a really different experience.
Speaker 2 00:24:07 After the show, they came up to us said, you know, we could feel everyone leaning forward and there were gas, but there was nothing in the audio description that sounded, you know, that exciting what happened. And we realized that we were missing a really big component. So for people who don't know audio description is the practice of somebody watching a show or a video or an image, and literally describing, talking out what they see happening. So this can be really functional. You know, there's a woman in a long sleeve red shirt and she is pointing. It can be more about emotion or artistic. There's a heterosexual white couple, and they're arguing about something and there's a child who looks afraid. It's about finding the meaning in what is being conveyed and translating that. However, when you're talking about richly visual spectacles like dance, you know, you begin to run into some issues because well, one person can only say so much.
Speaker 2 00:25:26 And if you have five dancers on stage, how is one person supposed to effectively describe what's going on? So I went away and thought about that for a little bit and had some ideas. We thought we had many, many discussions with blind friends and colleagues and artists and audience members and my ideas coalesced and to automat, right? Automatic is the app. And also it's becoming the practice the way that we describe the process of developing content for it. So if you imagine that you're in a huge room, you know, maybe let's go back to museums, you're in a giant museum gallery and there are speakers scattered throughout the space and they can be anywhere. They can be on the floor that could be hovering in midair. Let's say there's like 10 speakers. Every speaker is playing a different track. Every track is part of the same performance. So you come into the room and the performance, and then after some time, you know, the performance ends. So you can move yourself through this space. You know, you can go cuddle up to one speaker if you want, and listen to it from beginning to end, you can find a mix that pleases you and stay there for the whole performance. You can keep wandering and just let yourself experience all the different tracks as they mix and flow. So shrink that down into your phone screen, and you've got automatic.
Speaker 2 00:27:22 We leverage poetry pros, multiple styles of description, soundscape composition, screenplay style, radio, play, style narratives. So it forms this rich, intricate universe that is a complete experience in and of itself. And it's not something that we're adding on after the fact, this is all developed as part of the piece with the artists and 10 in order to be part of the art and to be that equitable experience. And you know, one thing that I like to point out here is that automates was not designed with universal design principles. It was actually really designed in contrast automates firmly centers, blind and visually impaired users days were the people who had been marginalized, the people who were impacted the most and the people who needed to be centered to make this work. And one of the outcomes of that, you know, of course, everybody wants to try the app, including sighted people.
Speaker 2 00:28:50 And I remember we would, when we premiered in New York, we would let a few sighted people each night, usually we'd have a long list. Like 50 people would sign up to try it. And we would let just a few people and prioritizing the people who really needed it for access and making sure that all of that. And if we had staff time remaining, we would let a few additional people download it and sign on. And I remember one particular incident, one gentleman at the post show reception was so to hear, yes, he was screaming at me about how I had ruined his experience. Wow. He was in, he was in full out sensory overload meltdown. Now I went and looked later, he turned the app off five minutes into the show and this was, and it was so, yeah, well it really, it prioritizes skilled listening. It prioritizes people who do use sound as their primary interface to this kind of art, because that's what is just in this case,
Speaker 1 00:30:17 Miss offer everyone is always is out kind of what you're saying.
Speaker 2 00:30:21 It's absolutely not for everyone. You know, there are instances where, for example, you can make independent works that don't have a visual proponent on automats. It works fantastically well for that, you can use it to provide just one or two tracks of description that don't overwhelm people in that way, but where it originated and the core that design, it was designed to create this equitable experience that did not already get access. And that is a lot of where we're looking. We don't think about access as a checklist. Access is not, you know, you go down and there's things you do. You've got your interpreter, you got your wheelchair seating. Oh, we'll be nice. And everyone in a chair can have one companion. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1 00:31:23 Checklists D and that's something that I've really come to realize is everyone a lot of businesses now? And I mean, I face it in my own business in the work that I do is it was a checklist. It was like, yep. You got the interpreter. Yep. You got the ramp. Yep. You got the elevator.
Speaker 2 00:31:43 And it's one thing to, you know, be running down your prep list when you're running an event. But access is not a checklist. Access is a capacity that exists between us as people. And that's such a cultural understanding amongst disabled people in certain places, the way that I like to introduce it to people who, for whom this is a completely foreign concept is talking about hospitality. Actually, you wouldn't invite a vegetarian to your dinner party and then only serve dishes with me products in them. Right. I mean, cause if you did, you'd be horrible.
Speaker 1 00:32:31 They would be very hungry and they would be
Speaker 2 00:32:34 That hospitality. So you wouldn't invite somebody or
Speaker 1 00:32:40 They're even on the other opposite and in this structure where they're where they accepted. And they're like, Oh, well, I I'm used to this. And so this is okay.
Speaker 2 00:32:49 Right. And it's not okay. And nobody should accept that kind of treatment. And yet, I mean, we know the internalized isms are all a thing. I think most of us still have to occasionally deal with, uh, internalized stabilism, even those of us who've been doing this work for a long time, but it's not okay. And it's not just, and we're not here to make it scary. We're not here to make it hard. We're just here to change the way people are thinking about it as if, if you invite this person. And in my mind, as an artist, if I have sold someone a ticket to a performance, I have invited them. They are now my guests. So of course, I'm going to do everything possible to make sure that they have an equal experience with everyone else, artistically, culturally, physically. And I'm going to, you know, do my best to make sure that they're comfortable. And I mean, if it's an awful work of art and the entire audience goes away mad that's okay. I mean, I would be very sad as an artist, but if just a few people go away unhappy because they have had some kind of lesser experience that's on me.
Speaker 1 00:34:11 I hear you're saying, is this difference between equity versus just access access is okay, I've opened up the door,
Speaker 2 00:34:21 But yeah. I mean, there's this kind of minimum of compliance. Well, even, and it's hard when we still don't have even bare bones compliance in many places, but really the conversation's moved on. So what do you say to those people that are
Speaker 1 00:34:41 Brand new to accessibility in general? And they go, okay, well, where do I start? I mean, would you say, start with the barebone minimums and then start to change the way that you think that accessibility is just a checklist of 10 things. It's, it's a continuous Evin flow and asking people what they want in order to feel accepted and included.
Speaker 2 00:35:09 I mean, obviously if there is something like people who are starting to look at renovating a building, we have a lot of experts in our community who do this work professionally. I mean, I'm also a pretty big believer that access consulting should not be provided for free, which again, we know happens pretty much all the time. You know, people grab first disabled person, they see, come into their business and be like, Hey, tell me what I need to do. So there are a lot of really good people in community that I am happy to refer folks to, but about mindset, you know, I'm just as likely to invite them to one of our workshops. If they're running events, if they're doing things online, if they're working in the arts in any capacity, if they're working in a cultural or educational institution, yeah. I'm going to invite them to one of my workshops, be like, okay, you know, come to class there there's exercises, there's homework, uh, changing the way you think isn't just stay, you know, boom. And you're done process as the whole country is finding out right now past time,
Speaker 1 00:36:36 It has been a whirlwind for sure. It's come at me 2020. What more you got still got a few more months. I'm still waiting.
Speaker 2 00:36:45 Not so sure about
Speaker 1 00:36:50 No, I totally joking. I, I think we are all at our wits end of this year for sure. And, and thinking about, you know, that, that, that experience of when someone looks up and Googles your kinetic light, the first thing that they obviously is gonna be a wheelchair because that is, it sticks out like a sore thumb. And a lot of people will question that and say, well, you know, well, why, why are they in a wheelchair? Or I wonder what they're the answer's going to be like, or, or whatnot, but, and all the things that you're saying it's been so beautifully articulated is that the art that you're making it's influenced by your disability obviously, but it doesn't mean you're making art about disability.
Speaker 2 00:37:42 Yeah. A lot of people get really hung up. There's this perception that artists who are outside the kind of white, straight non-disabled male default are going to be making art just about their identities, which is of course flatly not true. I mean, my identity as a disabled artists is not incidental. It is absolutely critical. The art that I made, the way that I look at things comes from my lived experience. I personally am not drawn to make identity art. And you know, I'm not actually putting it down as an artistic discipline. There have been fantastic works that come out of people's experiences, where they are telling their personal stories. It's just not something that I'm drawn to at this time. So what kinetic light makes yes is disability are, and it's very much coming. It is the art that it is because of our experiences.
Speaker 2 00:39:02 The way that Michael lights a piece is critically influenced by the way that he sees the world sitting down now that no more means that non-disabled people shouldn't come see it. You know, we welcome everyone into our audiences. If you wouldn't not go see something because of the artists, gender, or race or sexual identity. And you know, you also shouldn't be choosing whether or not to see it based on whether or not the artist is disabled. So we do get a lot of questions, of course, about being disabled dancers, about dancing in wheelchairs. And the easiest thing to do is just to show people what we do, which trained a very, very long time. I often say to be a professional dancer is to get up in the morning and take class because it doesn't matter how long you've been dancing. As long as you keep dancing and keep performing professionally, you take class, it's not about seeing quote unquote, lower quality or less physical work. It is just what we do. And if anyone would like to experience that from the other side of the studio, actually full radius, we'll be offering remote video classes, I believe beginning, Monday morning, again, picking up for the fall season two, which, which are open to everybody with or without disability.
Speaker 1 00:40:44 Wow. That's awesome for ETS dances here in Atlanta, for those that are just are learning about it. Well, it's, there's so many great nuggets of, I think they're, one-liners that I just, I really loved that I wrote down like first ramps deserve respect because they do when they don't get enough respect, especially a lot of them, if they're outside, they're just made of concrete and they have, what does it have a handrail on them? And they're not that pretty, but I just love this, how you guys were able to guys and gals and all the pronouns or no pronouns want to be respectful of that, that the ramp is it's just, it's integrated into it. And it becomes part of the story. It's not the story. And it's not the only thing that you should be looking at, but it's so fluid and, but daunting and scary and can be a safety hazard and this feeling of movement and describing these out of body experiences for all is so beautiful to know that you all are doing that because there's just not enough performance, live performance, imagery, videos, all of the things, even when you're on a live webinar and talking to people, no one's describing what they're wearing or what they look like.
Speaker 1 00:42:10 And that's something that I've started picking up more recently, when you come on a video, it doesn't matter if the person can see, or an honor, if they can hear or not, this is something that you want to start integrating into everything that you do
Speaker 2 00:42:24 Beginning to normalize these habits and practices, because nobody should have to ask special permission to come. You know, there's this thing about feeling like a burden because well, as soon as you say, you want it to come, I have to get this. I have to get that. That's not the way, right. Equity is also about being able to decide, show up at the last minute, just like everybody else
Speaker 1 00:42:54 And how access is, uh, is a capacity to exist. And it is because if we don't have access and equity in everything that we're doing, it's well, who are you designing it for a very, very small minority. This has been so wonderful to chat with you. Where can people find you give us your plugs?
Speaker 2 00:43:17 Well, my current work experiments, and of course in lockdown, I've been going back through the archives and pulling out a lot of fun, older stuff. I'll go on Instagram at worlds of Laurel and also of course, full radius, dance.org, or full radius stance on Instagram for those class notifications, upcoming performances workshops, and then kinetic light is actually quite busy and we're getting ready to get busier. So there's a lot going on Instagram, kinetic light dance, Facebook slash kinetic light on the [email protected]
And most of the artists are pretty responsive. I think Instagram is honestly the best way to get a hold of us. As I said, I'm at worlds of Laurel slide into my DMS. Alice's at wheelchair dancer without the
Speaker 1 00:44:22 Awesome. Thank you so much, Laura. I really appreciate your time. And I look forward to interviewing to others in your, thank you so much for having me card. You know, it was a pleasure. You're welcome. All right, well take care and thank you so much again,
Speaker 2 00:44:41 You too. Bye. Thank you friends for listening. Please rate and follow this podcast or text carton at (470) 588-1215 with comments and suggestions tune in next week for another disability topic.